Maria Furtwängler on sex scenes "Will he stick his tongue in me when I kiss him?"

Maria Furtwängler's new TV drama "Until the Truth" is about a sexual assault. The leading actress and co-producer talks about how shooting intimate scenes in the movie has changed her.

In "Until the Truth" (Wednesday, November 20, 8.15 p.m., ARD), Maria Furtwängler plays a successful doctor who gets involved in an afternoon fling with her friend's son.

But at the end of the day, there is an assault, which is kept quiet for the time being. The precise film skillfully brushes the topic of sexual violence against the grain and irritates with details that are different from what we know from rape films.

In this interview, the film's creator, co-producer and lead actress Maria Furtwängler explains which false ideas about sexual violence are still popular and in circulation today - and how film shoots have also changed massively as a result of thinking and talking about sexual violence.

Ms. Furtwängler, recently we've been seeing more films and series on German television that discuss non-consensual sex ...

Compared to the past, more material is being produced in which the possible perpetrator comes from the private sphere. Which, by the way, is much more in line with reality than in the past, when rapists were sinister fellows who came out of a dark alley at night. I think the debate and the "No means no" law have given rise to a new awareness - also among filmmakers.

Among other things, there was von Schirach's "She says. Er sagt", the series "37 Sekunden", the "Tatort: Videobeweis" and now your film on the subject. What effect do such plays have on the audience?

That people are slowly but surely breaking away from the clichés that my generation knows from their childhood and perhaps developed in front of the television via formats such as "Aktenzeichen XY". The roles were clearly assigned and the perpetrators had a clear profile. Rape in the private sphere was virtually non-existent in the perception of the media mainstream.

And we mustn't forget: Who was making movies back then? It was mainly men who served this narrative. It's still the case today: the figures show that the most dangerous place for a woman is her home.

In your film, a few more clichés are thrown into disarray.

I assume you mean that the woman appears much more powerful. She is much older, experienced, successful in her job, a strong personality. And the perpetrator: a young, cute guy. Actually also quite charming in his personality. When "Until the Truth" was shown at the Munich Film Festival, there were also reactions from the brand: "She shouldn't act like that, he was good-looking after all." Others found the movie totally disturbing and scary. It's exactly where we wanted to go. For the discussion: "What is rape?"

As clear as the rule "No means no" sounds, there are moments during consensual, even pleasurable sex that have to do with playful refusal. A sensitive topic, yes, but also one that can't be discussed away, can it?

Because it is so delicate and sometimes ambiguous, films like ours take on an important task: you have to think about what actually happened using concrete situations as examples. But there are other factors, such as the shame of the victims. In the monstrous Gisèle Pélicot rape case in France, she coined an epoch-making phrase: "Shame must change sides." Apparently, this woman, who was systematically raped by her husband and other men for years, was also confronted with the fact that she could also be somewhat to blame. This view urgently needs to change.

You see your character before the rape, masturbating, smoking pot and flirting with her rapist on the day that ends with the crime. How important was it to you that your character is also a bit "wicked", as they would have said in the past ...

You mean that she has a sexuality and wants to enjoy her life? It was extremely important to us that my character had this sexuality - both before and after the crime. Because it simply corresponds to the reality that it can be like that. No matter how traumatizing the crime is. We have to get away from the idea that real victims don't feel pleasure, aren't allowed to be playful, don't really like themselves in their sexuality. In the rape cliché, it is always the wallflower to whom the terrible thing happens.

There is another female character, played by Margarita Broich, who is both her character's best friend and the mother of the perpetrator. What did you want to show with her?

For example, that female solidarity also has its limits when you are so personally affected. Your own son is then closer to you than your girlfriend. And there are even comments like: "Yes, you cheated on your husband once too." This is another cliché accusation that is intended to minimize the seriousness of rape. Although it doesn't really matter.

Martina, your role in the movie "Until the Truth", is not an all-round likeable character ...

No, and that was also important to us. The way she treats her husband, for example, is not particularly nice. She certainly has her difficult traits. But that also fits in with the overall concept, that all the characters are ambivalent. We have no problem with ambivalence in a man. With women, it's always emphasized as something special.

Our film was made by women at key creative points, such as writing and directing. Even though our team was only about 50 percent female in the end, everyone noticed how unusually female it was. But I think you can see it in the finished film, which I had a strong influence on as the initiator and co-producer. Everything we're talking about here was important to us to show.

It also seems important to you that Martina feels a lust for life, which is shown above all before the act. How ecstatic can you be when you're over 50?

That's a somewhat peculiar question. It is indeed a topic that interests me. I recently saw a video of women who were perhaps 75 years old dancing quite ecstatically. The video went viral, which probably means that a lot of people laughed heartily at it. I would probably have done the same when I was 20. But the closer you get to old age, the more I think: why not? The lust for life, including sexuality, doesn't just go away ...

Only young people think that, don't they?

Yes, and I understand that too. Nothing is worse for young people than unreasonable parents who do crazy things that you thought were reserved for you and your generation. I remember when I was a teenager, the idea of my parents having sex was totally disgusting to me. That's just how you are at that age. When things go well, parents stand for stability and predictability in a positive sense.

An intimacy coach was also used for this film, i.e. someone who accompanies intimate scenes on the film set or in the theater. How much has the job changed your profession?

It's a very important job and it has changed our profession a lot. It starts with the fact that nowadays there are hardly any shoots with intimate scenes where this position is not filled. When you see how they work, you wonder how things used to be without intimacy coordination. Sexual scenes in movies are actually like stunts. They pose a particular challenge for the actors because they cross fears and boundaries. In the past, no one would have thought of shooting a stunt without stunt people or stunt coordinators.

How exactly does the work with the intimacy coach work?

It starts with a one-to-one conversation with the coordinator. As an actor or actress, you tell them where you want to be touched and where not. Which actions you may have problems with. You discuss what the camera is allowed to do and perhaps also who is allowed to be in the room. She also accompanies the scene itself. Sometimes certain parts of the body are masked off to make the actor or actress feel more secure. It goes as far as reaching for the mouthwash after kissing (laughs). The position of intimacy coach makes you feel really well protected.

And that was very different in the past?

Yes. Not only was it very different in the past, it was also very uncomfortable.

Because nobody knew exactly what they were allowed to do?

Sex scenes were usually filled with anxiety for us actors. We thought beforehand: Oh God, what if he grabs me here or there? Or: Will he stick his tongue in me when I kiss him? You have to imagine that: You get intimate with people you hardly know just because a script wants you to. You don't know what's about to happen. It's an absurd, inhuman situation. You just couldn't really let yourself fall into the scene, which is the aim of acting. On the other hand, if you know what the other person is about to do and it's been discussed, you can play a scene much better, I think.

Nude scenes in movies used to be taboo. At some point they became more normal. For some years now, people have been questioning whether nudity is necessary for a scene or whether it just serves voyeurism. Some complain that films have become more prudish as a result. What is your position?

As the actress of a "Tatort" detective, I'm definitely glad that they now often refrain from showing young female corpses naked on the autopsy table or undressed at the scene of the crime. I think there used to be a lot of superfluous and degrading voyeurism at this point. I think it's generally a good idea to think about which scenes are necessary to show in terms of the plot. In "Until the Truth", this includes both the masturbation scene and the rape scene. But I also think that in violent scenes, you often show things that aren't necessary. With nude scenes, there is a lot of discussion about the male gaze, i.e. the fact that female nudity in movies is usually okay, but male nudity is not. Why is that? Because men have decided what is interesting in movies. We must not restrict artistic creativity in film - but we also need to look closely at why things are the way they are in movies.

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