Bötschi asks Joe Bausch "Even criminals are afraid"
As a doctor, Joe Bausch treated serious criminals for over 30 years. A conversation with the 71-year-old about his work in prison, typical prison illnesses and the question: Is man good or evil?
No time? blue News summarizes for you
- Joe Bausch is a man of many talents. He is an actor, bestselling author and was a prison doctor.
- In his biography "Crazy Blood", the 71-year-old describes his terrible childhood on a farm - and explains how he was able to escape his parents' image of men.
- The first part of the interview with Joe Bausch appeared on blue News yesterday, Saturday.
- In the second part, Bausch talks about his work as a prison doctor and typical prison illnesses.
- "Many prisoners say clearly: I have committed a crime, I am rightly imprisoned. There are even some who suffer in prison - not just because of being locked up, but also because of their crime. But it's not the majority of prisoners," says Bausch.
Joe Bausch, you were a prison doctor at Werl Prison for over 30 years, in other words where the particularly serious boys are held. You were, so to speak, the family doctor for murderers and rapists . Is there a logic to a person becoming evil, or do all people have a choice as to which side they choose?
I believe that most people have a choice. From many conversations with criminals, I know that almost all of them can say quite precisely when in their lives they decided to go down the wrong path.
So these people at some point said, "Yeah, I want to be an asshole."
These people may not have necessarily wanted to become an asshole. But they were aware that after they did it, other people would think they were an asshole. I never wanted to be an asshole.
Is it naive to believe in the good in people?
That's not naive. Naive is someone who believes that all people are good and nice and forgets that there are also bad people in the world.
Acting is a dream job for many people, prison doctors less so. Why didn't you concentrate on acting when you were young?
I've often found it difficult in my life to get involved in just one thing. Instead, I like to do two or three things at the same time. As an actor, you are also dependent on other people.
About the author: Bruno Bötschi
blue News editor Bruno Bötschi regularly talks to well-known personalities from Switzerland and abroad for the question-and-answer game "Bötschi fragt". He asks them lots of questions - always direct, often funny and sometimes profound. It always remains open until the very last question as to where the fast-paced ping-pong will lead.
What do you mean by that?
As an actor, I have to be booked and staged well. And anyway: the doctor's and the actor's view of the world is not so different. Because if you're not interested in people, you can't play them - and as a doctor you can treat them, but you can't heal them.
What character traits does a person who wants to work in prison need to have?
Authenticity is the most important character trait in an environment where everyone lies to everyone else. And you have to decide every day anew to work in prison. That's the only way to endure working behind bars.
What are typical prison illnesses?
Insomnia, back pain and headaches.
I would have thought of HIV, hepatitis C and drug addiction.
It's true that these three conditions are very common in prison, but an illness usually starts with pain. What's more, there are more people with anxiety disorders in prison than anywhere else in the world. As many as 14 percent of all inmates suffer from psychiatric disorders. By the way, did you know that there are more mentally ill people in prisons worldwide than in psychiatric wards?
No, I didn't know that.
The fact is that criminals are also afraid.
It's clear that imprisonment is not cheerful: how do you treat depression in prison?
We can't release an inmate from prison to cure them of their depression. Nor can we advise him to give up his job, work less or go for walks more often. However, we can treat him with medication. As a prison doctor, I can also call in other specialists - a psychologist, a social worker or a priest, for example. The attention in prison is enormous, especially when there is a risk of self-harm. At such times, a whole team is on hand to help an inmate.
Were you often afraid while you were working as a doctor in prison?
I was never afraid. I only experienced two or three really dangerous situations within the prison walls. On the other hand, there were times when I was threatened outside the prison and then had to have my house guarded by the police. And once there was a mortician outside my house to collect my body. My resolution in all my years as a prison doctor was: from the day I'm really scared, I'll stop working in prison immediately.
Do you recognize a psychopathic personality when it's sitting opposite you?
Yes, I need 10 or 15 minutes to talk to the person. Through my decades of experience in prison, I realized at some point how many psychopaths I had already dealt with in my previous life - in the military, during my studies, but also in the theater. These people may not have killed anyone, but they were still psychopathic personalities, I've since realized that.
There are experts who claim: "Prison is not a solution. This has been proven by the consistently high recidivism rates for decades."
That may be true. The question remains: what would be the alternative to prison? However, I am also of the opinion that our prisons are not in a position to treat all the difficult personality disorders that we house there with the first attempt at therapy.
Some people need to stay there for 20 years, others only become wiser when they are old and frail. At the same time, however, it is a fact that over 40 percent of offenders do not reoffend after serving their sentence - at least among middle-aged inmates. Unfortunately, the recidivism rate for juvenile offenders is significantly higher at 70 percent.
But of course prison is not the solution to all social problems. Nevertheless, I believe that the majority of people want retribution and justice. And what other institution could guarantee that? At the same time, however, it is also important that prisons constantly adapt to changing social requirements, but also to the inmates. If they don't, the prison institution is not doing its job properly.
As a prison doctor, you have repeatedly had to treat inmates who have killed people in bestial ways. How did you manage to remain calm in such situations and concentrate on your work?
As a doctor, I have empathy for every patient - and as long as someone didn't insult or abuse me personally, it wasn't difficult for me. But yes, some prisoners make it particularly difficult. In these cases, I thought about what would happen if this guy went to see a doctor now that he was free? He wouldn't know what crime his patient had committed and would just be friendly with him.
In 2012, you said in an interview with Der Spiegel: "When a person is lying naked in front of you on the treatment table and you feel them, there is naturally a kind of closeness."
I always say: applications are also affection. As a prison doctor, I'm the only one who doesn't forcibly touch an inmate in prison. That can create a form of intimacy. Otherwise, there is only physical contact in prison when a prisoner is handcuffed.
I particularly liked these moments when I was working as a prison doctor. Prisoners would often tell me things that they had never told anyone else. Sometimes the stories I heard were very hard to bear. But if you don't ask, you don't get any answers - not negative ones, but not positive ones either.
What was it like when you examined a murderer in your treatment room?
I was only alone with a prisoner in the treatment room in exceptional cases - for example, if I had known them for a long time and had contact with them several times. In prison, however, a patient didn't just come to me for treatment.
If I had to carry out an operation, such as stitching up a laceration with scissors and a scalpel, there were always two or three men standing around me keeping an eye on things. I'm brave, but not foolhardy. Not least because I would also endanger other employees if I behaved carelessly.
Have you also experienced success stories? Murderers who found their way back to a normal life?
Absolutely. I meet ex-prisoners from time to time when I'm on a reading tour. Some of them have even introduced me to their wives and children on the street. There are also the guys who turn the other side of the street when they see me. They prefer to avoid meeting the prison doctor, perhaps because they don't want to make their life story public in front of their escort. I understand that, and as a doctor I am also bound to confidentiality.
Do criminals also have a conscience?
Absolutely - my experience is that the majority of inmates know that what they did wasn't right. Many prisoners say clearly: I have committed a crime, I am rightly imprisoned. There are even some who suffer in prison - not just because they are locked up, but also because of what they have done. But it's not the majority of prisoners.
There are also female psychopaths, but they are rare. So is evil male after all?
Well, if you look at the numbers of convicted people, it's clear: 95 percent are men, 5 percent are women. Women, on the other hand, are much more frequently the victims of crime. But it is also clear that women are also capable of acting psychopathically.
But women obviously work differently. Perhaps they are simply cleverer than men. I don't know exactly. But I am quite sure that it can't just be down to their greater cleverness. As the saying goes: men murder, women read about it.
In "Tatort" Cologne, you play the popular pathologist Josef Roth. What does this role mean to you?
You know what, it's the only role in my life so far where I don't play a criminal. Or as others would say: It's my only serious role. That's probably why I've been playing it for 27 years now. And I still love playing it and am grateful for it. This role really means a lot to me, even though there have been many roles that have challenged me more.
At the age of 59, you said in the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper :"I simply love working. Nothing would be worse than having to stop doing something because I can no longer physically do it." Now you're 71, how does old age make you feel?
Oh ... I don't even know ... I feel good. There's a wonderful saying: if you get up in the morning when you're over 50 and you're not in pain, then you're dead. At the same time, I'm grateful for the amazing amount of vitality I still have.
What do you attribute your vitality to?
My explanation is this: I don't rest or rest, I prefer to keep looking for new challenges. I always say that people feel old when they are no longer curious.
So you're not afraid of getting older?
No, not at all. On the contrary, I'm curious to see what else will happen. And I'm often restless and forget to take breaks, which I would probably prescribe myself as a doctor. Yes, I live against medical advice and against common sense. But as long as it works well, I'll probably keep it that way (laughs).
How relaxed do you stay in the face of Christmas?
I like to follow the example of my Aunt Res. She ignored Christmas and instead went out on any given day and bought presents. I'd like to do the same - but I usually can't because otherwise I'd be labeled an antisocial type.
Well then, not only have I learned to forgive in my life, but I've also made peace with Christmas in recent years. However, I'm still not the big celebrating bear. However, there is no filming or readings during the festive season, so I am also forced to reflect.
Are you hoping for an afterlife?
I don't hope for an afterlife, even though I was born a Catholic and a Christian. But if there is an afterlife, that's okay with me. But I've never done good things in my life because I hoped to earn my way to heaven. I've always done what I've done without a net and without a double bottom (laughs).
The first part of the interview with Joe Bausch appeared yesterday, Saturday, December 14, on blue News.
